THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL HELL « Result #3 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:36pm »
THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT
The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always ends with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.
If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.
But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
ON THE BASIS OF HAVING STUDIED THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO YOU CHOOSE ONE Choose to believe that the Bible teaches that God will sustain people alive in an inescapable state of eternal suffering. Or Choose to believe that God will annihilate (cause them to cease to exist) anyone who does not become a Christian before they die. Or Choose to believe what the following expositors reveal about what the Bible teaches. Copy and paste into Google THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD SERIES
I myself, along with many others with whom I am acquainted, simply cannot love a god who would let anyone choose themselves into an inescapable state of eternal suffering (Arminian), or suffer forever just because they were born into the human race (Calvinist). Neither can we love a god who would snuff us out of existence just because we didn’t hear about Jesus before we died.
But we CAN love a god Who, because of His Son’s death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, will sooner or later save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved. That’s the God that the above expositors see in the Bible. And that’s the God to Whom I joyously yield my heart in complete and total abandonment.
Christian Biblical universalist websites « Result #4 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:30pm »
WEBSITES (SOME OF THEM WITH MANY LINKS) THAT SHOW THAT THE BIBLE CORRECTLY (LITERALLY, NOT INTERPRETIVELY) translated teaches universal salvation, not "eternal torment" or even "annihilation."
My favorite quote outside of the Bible. « Result #5 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:28pm »
My favorite quote outside of the Bible.
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.” Dr. Leslie Weatherhead http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
THE GRAND ASSERTION « Result #6 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:27pm »
THE GRAND ASSERTION
ALL OF MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST AND ALL OF MANKIND WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN JESUS AS LORD AND GOD AS SAVIOR FOLLOWING THE NECESSARY DISCIPLINE OF THE CONSUMING PURIFYING FIRE OF GOD.
Mal 3:2b "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap;”
SUB-ASSERTION #1
MANKIND WAS DECLARED RIGHTEOUS BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST HAVING BEEN RECONCILED TO GOD BY HIS DEATH
Rom 5:6-10 “For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. But God demonstrates his own love for us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, because we have now been declared righteous by his blood, we will be saved through him from God's wrath. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, since we have been reconciled, will we be saved by his life?
Note that a summary of these verses could be the following: While we were helpless ungodly sinners who were His enemies, Christ died for us, declared us righteous by his blood, will save us from God’s wrath, and reconciled us to God through His death.
Helpless ungodly sinners who were enemies of God and Christ may be words written to those of Rome who were currently believers, but here Paul is obviously referencing their status with God prior to their becoming believers. Therefore the being reconciled to God and declared righteous occurred prior to belief since these descriptions are hardly of believers.
At the foot of the cross were many helpless ungodly sinners who were the enemies of Jesus, yet He said, “Father forgive them for they don’t know what they are doing”. I believe the Father was in agreement with this prayer of Jesus and so their sins were or will be forgiven on the merits of Jesus alone. Mankind was declared righteous, or justified on that day. Paul reinforces the fact of being declared righteous was for all mankind a few verses later in Rom 5:18, “Consequently, just as one offense resulted in condemnation for everyone, so one act of righteousness results in justification and life for everyone.”
SUB-ASSERTION #2
NO “PUNISHMENT”, “DESTRUCTION”, “PERISHING”, “LOSTNESS” IS ETERNAL; RATHER GOD’S “PUNISHMENTS” OR “DESTRUCTION” ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE
Now, we do need His discipline to make us fit for His kingdom. This discipline will not be “eternal”, but it will be “aeonian or eonian”, the English equivalents of the Greek “aionios”. “Aeonian” punishment as referred to in Mt. 25:46, one of the proof texts for those who hold to the heresy of the eternal torment of non-believers, is the type of correction that God will administer to the unbeliever. The noun being modified by aeonian is the word punishment, which is the Greek “kolasis” which has been used in reference to “pruning” a plant for the purpose of better production. “Kolasis” punishment is the corrective type, whereas, “timoria” punishment is the retributive type. The “aeonian” life in Mt. 25:46 is the life given to the believer by God beginning at the point of belief. This is that life we enjoy as believers which blesses us now as we deal with this physical life and also blesses us with the promise of immortality and therefore everlasting communion with our Father.
Aeonian destruction as referenced in 2 Thess. 1:7-9, “…who will be punished with aeonian destruction from the presence of the Lord,…”, is the kind of destruction necessary for God to administer for the fulfillment of His purposes. Destruction is equivalent to death in that it is “from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power”. Jesus was “destroyed” at the cross, but as in His case, so with all cases of destruction or death, there is no sense of “eternal” associated with them as Jesus rose to life and “the last enemy to be eliminated will be death”.
The “lost” sheep, coin, and son of Luke 15 referred to a condition that did not last forever. The word “lost” is the translation of the Greek “apollumi”, from which we have the translations lose, lost, perish, destroy, etc. As we can see in Luke 15, the sheep, coin, and son were only “lost” until they were found. This harmonizes with the fact that Jesus said He came to “seek and save the lost”.
Note that the following verse tells us that there is a special benefit for becoming a believer now, but that God will save all of the “lost” unbelievers also. 1Tim 4:10 “For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” The Greek word that got translated “especially” here is “malista”. Checking its usage in other verses makes it clear that especially is a good choice for English since it does refer to extra special attention to something, but not to the exclusion of other items mentioned in the context.
The Hebrew word “olam” has as its Greek equivalents “aion” and “aionios” in the Septuagint. An analysis of the approximately 440 occurrences of olam in the Old Testament suggests that it means a period of time without the end in sight but not necessarily “eternal”, or “everlasting” or “forever”, if it should ever be. Olam was only 3 days in the case of Jonah’s duration in the fish, even though the “traditional” translation has been “forever”. Also, the length of time a person would be the slave has been referred to as “forever”, which we know is literally only for their physical lifetime. Some versions never use eternal, everlasting, or forever for olam. Have you noticed some versions use the phrase “forever and ever”. Have you ever given thought to the absurdity of adding the words “and ever” after you have already said forever? What’s more than forever? That’s like saying something lasts for an eternity and then for another eternity. The absurdity of this should add to our awareness of the bias of those translators who consistently translate olam, aion, and aionios as eternal, everlasting, forever, or the absurd “forever and ever” phrase.
An analysis of the word “hell” is quite revealing. Jesus used the word “geena” or “hades” and tradition (KJV, Catholic church, etc.) has had the ignorant audacity to use this Anglo-Saxon word “hell”, which means “unseen” (a-des), corresponding to the Hebrew “sheol” and attach to it a meaning out of pagan mythology of a place of eternal torment. Dr. Thomas Thayer in his book “The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment” traces this myth of eternal torment that became associated with the word hell to ancient Egypt. Geena (sometimes Gehenna) was the Valley of Hinnom which became a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where carcasses of criminals were burned which Jesus metaphorically referenced as a future potential punishment with no sense of “eternal” punishment inherent in its meaning. This refers to aeonian punishment which again is God’s corrective punishment. Gehenna should have been left untranslated because it is a geographical location that the Jews of Jesus’ audience knew exactly what he was referring to. Hades should have also been left untranslated or translated as “unseen” or “the grave” as some versions do, as Hades definitely has no inherent punishment connotation. There are a number of versions that don’t use the word “hell” even once, realizing the bad rap the word has gotten with the erroneous connotation.
SUB-ASSERTION #3
ALL HUMANITY WILL COME TO BELIEVE IN GOD AND WILL WORSHIP HIM SOONER OR LATER
The following are 5 witnesses (scriptures) from 4 of God’s servants: DAVID, ISAIAH, PAUL, and JOHN.
NOTE: Nowhere in the Word do we have any evidence that one must come to belief in this lifetime, which is another myth of man; contrariwise, we have much evidence in the following verses and many others that some will only come to belief after their physical death. At this point some might think of the Rich Man and Lazarus parable, Matt. 13:34. Parables must be discerned spiritually as they are not to be taken literally since they are fictional stories to convey a spiritual message. Consider this, Rich Man = Jews and Lazarus = Gentiles and the spiritual message is that the Jews will be disciplined for their attitude toward and treatment of the Gentiles.
Keep in mind that belief is granted by God in His time not in man’s. God grants belief to some in this lifetime and others after their physical death. The myth that one must come to belief in this lifetime is something man dreamed up or more than likely got from the pagans and added to his traditions, but God’s word does not speak of it.
John 6:44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Phi 1:29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,”
THE MASTER PLAN OF THE MASTER COULD BE SUMMED UP IN A COMPREHENSIVE SUMMARY OF HIS WORD AS FOLLOWS AS ATTESTED BY MANY WITNESSES.
“ALL IS OUT OF ME AND ALL WILL COME BACK TO ME.” --- GOD
Rom 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. 1Co 15:28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
GOD WILL BE ALL IN ALL = GOD WILL BE EVERYTHING TO EVERYONE
OUR SPIRIT CAME OUT OF GOD AND WILL RETURN TO GOD
DAVID was inspired to write:
Psalms 22:27-28 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations
ISAIAH was inspired to write:
Isa 45:23 By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: 'To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.' Isa 45:24 "Only in the LORD, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; to him shall come and be ashamed all who were incensed against him.
PAUL was inspired to write:
Phi 2:10-11 “…so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow — in heaven and on earth and under the earth — and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”
Rom 14:11 For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow to me, and every tongue will give praise to God."
JOHN was inspired to record:
Rev 5:13 “And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
SINCE AFTER A CERTAIN TIME DEATH WILL CEASE TO BE, LEAVING ONLY LIFE AND HENCE NO MORE SEPARATION BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, ALL OF THESE WITNESSES CAN TESTIFY TO THE SAME THING:
NOTE: The feeble attempt to downplay this worshipping, bowing, and confessing as somehow “forced”, is born out of bias for eternal torment. Note particularly in Phil. 2:11 the phrase “to the glory of God the Father”. It is obviously not giving God glory to say Jesus is Lord without meaning it and you might also recall what Paul said about saying that Jesus is Lord, that “…no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.” (1 Cor. 12:3b)
EVERY CREATED BEING WILL SOME DAY PRAISE AND GLORIFY GOD
How I recovered from a 12 year breakdown « Result #7 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:25pm »
WHAT I WISH I HAD KNOWN DURING MY YOUTH
How I recovered from a 12 year nervous breakdown (1966-78) I’m 69
My name is Rodger Tutt. I am 69 years old. I could have avoided a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) had I known as a youth about the following information concerning what a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaches
A phone conversation with a Muslim « Result #8 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:23pm »
A PHONE CONVERSATION WITH A MUSLIM MISSIONARY
A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.” (I have sent out many hundreds of packets of literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)
The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”
I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”
He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”
I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”
He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”
I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”
He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”
I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”
I don’t think he thought it was funny.
I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”
It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.
I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain irrefutable evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.
Just Google up TENTMAKER and use the search engine at the top of the front page. Type in a key word from any argument or Bible verse and ten articles will appear refuting the idea that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then click to the next page and ten more articles will appear, and so on and so on for many pages.
Also Google up THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD EBY or ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST to find A LOT of scriptural evidence that God has both the ability and the intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved.
If you cannot love an eternal torment god « Result #9 on Oct 22, 2008, 12:21pm »
If you cannot love an eternal torment god
For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church. These online books also explain why and how this changed.
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.
The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language.
Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.
I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering, including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, than all the other sufferings of my life combined.
This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.
If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.
THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE
The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.
The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”
The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.
The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures
"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)
And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”
Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist. So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering.
What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering (Arminian), or they deserve to suffer forever just by being born into the human race (Calvinist)!
Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea! Yes, God is just but He is not justice personified. However, God is Love personified. That is why He will temper all of His administrating of justice only to be for the good of the individual being judged.
Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.
(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)
and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.
Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.
This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69
I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle. He responds to the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"
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